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February 16, 2009


You're a fine one to call the kettle black, deadbeat. You and 'another' are fine ones to talk about nasty personal attacks. And I've given up trying to challenge any of your "facts", indeed, anything you say, because you always trip on your reset button and start all over again......

Sling all the insults you want, REAL, but you failed to dispute a single assertion I made, failed to question a single specific fact or opinion I presented, and failed to challenge a single historical or contemporary statement I made.

Can't reason with me? You haven't even tried. Only your usual nasty personal attacks.

Always a sign of defeat when the other side gets personal when the discussion is about issues... perhaps the priceless entertainment is watching people like you tap dance around the truth as it's presented to you time after time, finally retreating to the ultimate loser's position in any discussion: name calling and personal shots.

There's absolutely no point in trying to reason with either you, anotherprig, or downbeat. I just knew that neither of you would be capable of understanding anything beyond your own garbage. You are made for each other. But please don't quit writing here; the entertainment is priceless. And don't bother "getting back to me".

Hey REAL,..
In the last 6 years film recording money in LA is down between 40-50 percent,...

Explain that away.

And btb,... you pions are always complaining about the committee,.. so riddle me this... Name a time when they have been wrong where they didn't correct it immediately. No generalities,.. SPECIFICS. I'll wager you can't. Time to get back under the covers with phil and yell LALALA at the REAL world and you and your ilk let more of our work leave and more good people lose income, selfish prig. I'll RECHECK those other numbers and get back to you.... As if you'd care.

Thanks for the info, Another... I guess that's today's RMA: rich guys who could care less about anyone who isn't working today. Guess they need to "practice more", huh? These guys will say and do anything to "protect" their decades-old special payments deals, no matter how many musicians have to go without work. Plus, they have the gall to expect the equivalent of tax-free income (no work tax on special payments)! Yeah, tax breaks for the rich, the poor suffer to keep the wealthy working and rich, great system. Sounds a lot more like a corporation than a trade union.

But you've got to hand it to the recording musicians - they've duped enough of the membership into thinking their "protect the rich, screw the unemployed and underemployed" attitude is somehow compatible with trade unionism. That, in itself, is a PR and propaganda feat of epic proportions.

Hey anotherjerk (since you think it's OK to call me 'skippy')- check out the new thread just posted right here on this site, and finally open your eyes to some real specifics. Then go back into your hole.

Wow Downbeat,

REAL is probably sazar. You gave specifics and he/she/it pretends not to see. Here's some research for you REAL. Over the past 6 years, according to the committee (and the full budget reports of LOCAL 47) the film work is down between 40-50%.
Explain that away, skippy....

I've been doing some more research too,... while in 2007 the contribution to the MP fund in 2007 were 23 millions plus,.. the amount in 2008 is 17 million plus....

Down six million in one year REAL,... now that's REAL, wouldn't you say, REAL?

That's down in the area of 26% REAL in one year.

Still standing by that powerpoint BS, REAL?

The problem is downbeat, they know the truth and don't care, they're happily screwing their own RMA rank and file as well. It's already gotten far too REAL for musicians far more deserving from an ethical standpoint than REAL here, but since, no doubt, REAL has those July checks, let the rest of us burn. They're the Halliburton of Los Angeles. Draining the city dry for their own pocketbooks.

Inexcusable, but it's their business model. No doubt there's a special place in hell for those of such greed and arrogance.

Well, downbeat: apart from the fact that you have indeed raved on and on about the COMMITTEE for weeks, if not months, I am still trying to accept that you are serious in anything you say. I'm still having a good laugh along the way with your constant gyrations. But you keep spinning on the same spot.

Your obsession with the COMMITTEE, as your only source fueling your resentment towards working musicians, is astounding, coming from someone in your position - as if everyone hasn't already figured it out.

arealrecordingmusician, I never mentioned the COMMITTEE in my post. Funny how you are obsessed with it, apparently. Perhaps YOU'RE a member of the committee?

But don't worry, just keep on trying really hard to ignore the truth about the world recording marketplace, close your eyes really really hard, tap your heels together and say over and over "I am the best. I deserve special payments. I am the best. I deserve special payments... It is the 1970s. Everything is live. AFM has leverage. Most films are recorded AFM. There are no samplers. Everyone loves me and my music."

You and your elitist, jaded pals keep on burying your heads in the "LA special payments for big orchestras" delusional sand and the rest of us will keep on trying to prevent a tiny minority of members from driving the AFM into the ground with attacks and lawsuits designed to selfishly fatten their own wallets.

You are a knucklehead, downbeat. You never listen to anything outside your little circle, and just continue to blurt out the same old stale propaganda. And now, a bigger blurt than ever. And no research. Oh, I forgot - it's that pillar of truth: the BS 'COMMITTEE'! Nothing anyone else tells you seems to register in your tiny brain.

Anotherrecordingmusician said: "Most of the best film nominees were done non-AFM"

Very interesting... sort of puts the "more and more films are being done AFM" claim in a clearer light. As I've said before, "more and more" means very little unless you know the overall marketshare.

With the ever-increasing list of international and domestic buyout orchestras (everybody except the AFM, that is) that are competing for sessions, including some in Europe that are permanent, established orchestras (as opposed to pick-up groups of session players), the AFM needs to compete even more for recording work. Remote recording technology means these orchestras can hook up to your own studio, making things far more convenient than they used to be when you had to fly to Europe to effectively utilize these orchestras.

Assuming the bitter, jaded old-school recording musicians stick to their guns and refuse to work under new, competitive buyout agreements, I believe that the inevitable new buyout agreements for library work and indie film work will mean a new generation of recording musicians not tied to the "special payments or die" mantra that continues to fuel the non-AFM recording market and severely limit the options for AFM players.

The simple matter is that all this competition, combined with the fact that music is easily outsourced (does anybody really believe the public going to see a film can hear the difference between a recording made in LA, Seattle, London or Prague?), the AFM has lost its ability to force special payments down the throats of producers - the AFM has simply lost its leverage. I believe this is a direct result of the intransigent "special payments or die" attitude of decades ago that some of the more jaded and bitter recording musicians continue to scream about - this worked in the 1960s and 1970s when everything was live and the AFM had little or no competition, but not anymore. There's too much competition, and as a result the AFM has lost much of its leverage in the global marketplace. It's sad, but true. After all, why do you suppose the AFM or the RMA is not mounting a single public protest when composer contracts include "no AFM recording" clauses? If that's not a blatant attack on the AFM, I don't know what is. Any other "real" union would be picketing, but the AFM/RMA rolls over and does nothing. If the recording musicians should be suing anyone, it should be production companies that force composers to refuse to record AFM, not the AFM itself which is the source of the very agreements that keep those July Jackpot special payments rolling in for the "few and the proud". Instead, we watch Lee and Ayling and their increasingly costly pissing match. They fiddle while the AFM's effectiveness and competitiveness in the world "burns".

If the U.S. computer business ran their industry like some of the recording musicians want to run theirs, the computer business would still be demanding $5,000 for a computer that you can buy anywhere else for $750.00. Competition is an inevitable fact of doing business, and today's competition is global, not just US-based. Those businesses that ignore it are doomed to fail, sooner or later. It is lunacy to expect anyone not to price-shop these days, and the proven quality of many of the non-AFM orchestras can be heard in their recordings. Plus, look at the complexity of the music being written for film/TV today - not nearly as difficult as in previous decades, and far more "playable" by orchestras with less experience than the "LA studio elite". I believe it is FAR better for the AFM to aggressively and proactively carve out that portion of the business it wants, rather than be buffeted about by international competition and having our share of the market defined for us by the actions of competitors.

And nobody's denying that the big-budget, big-orchestra blockbuster films will usually record AFM in LA. But as anotherrecordingmusician said in a recent post, look at the Academy Awards this year - how many "big budget" films actually reached the top of the industry? For every WALL-E, there are tons of smaller budget films - and some of them are getting serious recognition as the film marketplace moves from one dominated by big budget films to one where smaller budget films have just as much of a chance of winning top awards in many categories. Film music is becoming much more of an intimate sound, with the "big orchestra" sound being used less and less as budgets and tastes change. We can no longer remain transfixed on a shrinking portion of the marketplace (big-budget, big-orchestra) while bitterly shutting out the significant section of the marketplace that chooses the buyout business model and has the rest of the world to choose from as far as recording orchestras and musicians.

Look, nobody's arguing that the 60s and 70s weren't great! But pining away for the old times and pretending they still exist is nothing more than a delusion, and that's no way to compete in today's marketplace. If our leaders refuse to accept today's business realities, we need new, more enlightened leaders... soon. This isn't about "protecting existing contracts" whose business models date back to the 1960s, this is about today's competitive realities that are massively different than in the 60s and 70s. And as much as some will try to spin this as anti-AFM, it's actually quite pro-AFM - I believe the only way the AFM will continue to be relevant in the marketplace is by effectively working with a wide variety of employers and effectively competing in today's global marketplace for recording.

Let's not watch the AFM go down in smoke trying "protect" the makers of buggy whips (special payments) while the rest of the world has moved on to cars (buyouts). Protecting outdated, non-competitive business models is a sure recipe for disaster - because all the "protecting" in the world won't change the fact that if something is non-competitive, it's non-competitive. It's not about loyalty, and it's not about quality, and it's not about "the best" since that's hardly an objective measure that is being redefined by evolving musical tastes and trends. It's about dollars and businesses spending the least money and having the least amount of financial "strings attached" as possible among a global array of competitors to get whatever quality of product or service they desire. Just as consumers often choose a lower-priced, quality import over a higher-priced domestic product, we cannot expect businesses to be any less price-conscious about their spending decisions, especially in today's tough economy.

I guess it was inevitable that one of these guys would give us some more comedy with another classic for the "Ayling Sazar" minions. We're laughing out loud all right - but it's at you two. Keep it up! Are you sure you aren't a comedy writer?


Wait a few days to post and these folks can be led by the nose. It's absolutely classic. Do these people really think anyone in a real position of power in the AFM would waste their time with these Ayling Sazar Minions? LOL.

Just got the latest committee mailing. More and more of the major films are being done out of LA and the greedy thugs don't care how many outside the core lose their jobs and even homes as long as their checks are safe. If the AFM were a country, this recording click would be considered traitors and domestic terrorists.

Some yahoo even thought it would be a good idea to REFUSE to play music in non-union films on the oscar telecast. I'd love that, their butts would be out and someone else would get a chance to play. Most of the best film nominees were done non-AFM!,... THANKS PHIL!,... THANKS MARC!,... selfish shameless prigs.

Yeah, and the only posts from one blogger in particular - while the present Film negotiations are taking place - come only in lunch hours, after negotiating sessions have ended for the day, or before they begin (Milwaukee time). Coincidence, of course......

During the IEB meeting in LA the posts stopped.
During the Western Conference the posts stopped.

Do the math.

It appears that the answer to my underlying question about the possibility for constructive debate is "no."

Because Dumbass. You don't blab while negotiations are going on.Everyone had opportunities to submit proposals. Now go back in your snakehole for awhile and let people get their work done.

Sessionman - actually I heard about the IEB/RMA meeting and the details first from the COMMITTEE newsletters - as I said, that seems to be the place to go to get the whole story on what's happening these days in the world of Local 47... The opposing side already knows exactly what happened at the negotiations - they were there, of course. It seems that the only people who are being kept in the dark here are the rank & file AFM members... now I wonder why that would be...??!!

downbeat, you should know better. Why would we want to publicly talk about the negotiations while they were ioccuring. That could compromise our whole position . Anyway I'd be very surprised if you didn't already know exactly whats going on.Remember the RMA?IEB meeting where everyone was supposed to keep things confidential? Seems I remember that it was you who knew the details. Go figure.

Downbeat - you are quite amazing. First of all, how the heck would I know what happened at the negotiations!!? And why are you asking what you already know?

Everyone knows the COMMITTEE's data is BS, and not based on any substance other than their wishful thinking. But while we are at it, if you want to see a bitter and jaded attitude, just look at "anotherrecordingmusician's" posts!! Actually, it's all very representative of the COMMITTEE's attitudes.

And I never said you were Tom Lee. You did. So I guess now we all know.

And yet, arealrecordingmusician, you continue to refuse to answer a simple question: what happened at the negotiations? Instead, you dance around the English language. Games, games, games.

OK, so if "AFM Management" isn't technically correct, let's try "elected AFM National Leadership" referring to the IEB and the top officers - Lee et al.

Ready to discuss some actual issues? While they've certainly got an agenda, I'll say one thing for the COMMITTEE, though - everybody gets a say - they publish the data, and all comments pro and con are welcome and respected.

First of all, downbeat, there is no such thing as AFM mgmt! Perhaps that is part of your problem, as you seem to see things only as if there were! And your 'simple questions' are never that - they're always loaded, and set up for recording musicians to lose. You know exactly what you're doing, and looking back over many posts, you consistently ignore the points others make, while throwing out new diversions.

To say I am bitter and jaded in my posts, where what I have said is neither, all while singing the praises of none other than the so-called COMMITTEE is nothing less than hilarious. You're still cracking me up!

Sorry guys, wasn't there, as much as some on this list can't quite seem to shake those wet dreams about me being Tom Lee!

But I'm starting to get a very good idea of how frustrating it must be for AFM mgmt to work with the recording musicians. Simple questions are thrown back in one's face, conspiracy theories abound, and people would rather focus on personalities and petty matters rather than real issues. Personalities and fantasies drive the discussion, rather than questions and issues.

A truly sad commentary on at least some of today's recording musicians, but your bitter, jaded attitude says it all, arealrecordingmusician. But hey, if you don't know, you don't know. Thank goodness for the COMMITTEE newsletters so we can learn ALL about what's going now, not just the parts the recording musicians want to reveal (or hide).

Still cracking me up, downbeat! Now you want to 'know' "some facts about what happened today"!
Why don't you tell us?

Sorry, I wasn't there! Honest! Perhaps instead of all the conspiracy theories and identity-guessing, may we have some facts about what happened today?

It always amazes me the lengths that a few people will go to avoid discussing issues and instead focus on personalities in their lame attempts to get people to take their eyes off the ball.

Frankly, we all have way too much at stake here to not take these matters seriously.

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